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How Destiny 2 Failed its Fanbase

Destiny 2's has been hurting in the months since launch compared to its predecessor. We break down why.

Analysis by Doc Burford, .

You might think that Destiny 2 is a success story. After all, Destiny 2 is the second best-selling game of 2017, and it released to largely positive reviews. With the PC version, Bungie and co-developer Vicarious Visions released a fantastic port. On paper, everything seemed perfect, but then reality hit: something was wrong with Destiny 2.

Within months of its release, Destiny 2 began shedding players far faster than the original game. Popular streamers who had made their living on Destiny moved on to other games, and multiplayer counts plummeted. Now, even financial analysts are suggesting that Destiny 2 is struggling. What happened to Destiny? Can Bungie save it?

Why We Loved Destiny

If you want to understand why Destiny 2 failed, it’s important to understand its predecessor. The original Destiny had launched in a rough state, but Bungie could be forgiven. After all, they had built the legendary Halo franchise up from nothing, but they had never built an MMO-like game before, and they were quick to respond to issues that needed solving. Development on the first expansion The Dark Below was rushed, but Destiny’s raids and content additions were enough to keep players happy until House of Wolves, an expansion released in the spring of 2015 that solved most of Destiny’s lingering problems.

Destiny felt amazing to play. In a world dominated by slow, boots-on-the-ground, stop and pop combat, leaping around with the Hunter class' triple jump or slamming into the ground with the Titan class' smash felt liberating. The enemy variety remains some of the most diverse and tactical in shooter history, especially when rewarding player critical kills with satisfying hit feedback. For players who wanted to face off against each other, Destiny offered a competitive mode called the Crucible, and later, an even more competitive mode called Trials of Osiris. Even after I had completed all the content Destiny had to offer, nothing was as satisfying and blasting enemies for hours on end. Destiny was an easy game to turn on any given day and play for long periods of time. It wasn’t for everyone, but no game is.

Bounties, and later quests and completion books, were crucial to Destiny’s success. Even during content droughts, players always had something to do; it was a great way to encourage players to experiment and feel like they’d accomplished something every day. Supporting this was the loot system. Loot is one of the toughest challenges for any game developer, but Bungie managed it beautifully. In most loot shooters, when a player receives a gun, that gun will feature a small, meaningless stat change or two. Maybe this shotgun reloads just a bit faster than that one and carries some more shells, making it seem like an obvious upgrade, but maybe that other shotgun has more damage per second. Players can get lost in a sea of meaningless stat changes that result in very little tangible change.

Destiny was different. All the guns had static numbers. They all dropped with multiple randomized perks, or small bonuses that impact how a gun plays, like explosive bullets or faster reload after a headshot kill. Not every perk was good, and not every perk worked well together, but according to some enterprising Redditors, Destiny had over a million unique weapon configurations, and around 31 percent of those configurations were deemed “OK, good, or great.” Hunting down the best perk set quickly became one of the big draws of Destiny. Other developers, like Ubisoft Massive (the studio that developed The Division), took note and adjusted their loot systems accordingly.

There was so much to love about Destiny, and Bungie kept pumping out content. Some of the most fun I’ve had in the past year of gaming was a few weeks back, when I returned to Destiny’s horde mode level, the Archon’s Forge, and played with some friends for hours. Sparrow Racing, which everyone begged for, was delightful, though frustratingly temporary. The raids were intense. Few gaming memories are as epic as a flawless run in Trials of Osiris. Guns like Hung Jury, Icebreaker, Found Verdict, and Vision of Confluence aren’t just some of the best guns in Destiny, they’re some of the best shooter guns in history, because they are so fun to use.

Bungie made plenty of mistakes, especially when it came to being stingy early on, but it was good about listening to feedback, explaining what went wrong, and making quick fixes. Some fixes were necessary, others were frustrating, but by the April update after 2016's Rise of Iron expansion, Destiny was one of the best games players could buy.

But there was a problem.

Whack-A-Mole

As a live game, Destiny was expected to receive tuning changes throughout its lifespan, and it did, but many of these patches had one thing in common: Bungie really liked to play whack-a-mole. Take, for instance, the patch notes from April 7, 2016, where Bungie’s designers repeatedly state that certain weapons are too good, and as a result, those weapons needed to be nerfed.

In a June 2016 update, Bungie Sandbox Designer Grant Mackay argued that Hunters had higher win rates, therefore, hunters had to be too powerful. High-skilled players will tell you a different story. Hunters were popular because they had the best air control. Fixing this would have required nothing less than a total rework of Titan and Warlock jumps to make them feel equally agile; indeed, once Titans figured out a glitch that buffed their movement speed, they became the favored class. Instead, Bungie nerfed their most popular class, much to the chagrin of their players.

Hunters had a lot of disadvantages; one of them was that Gunslinger Hunters, a subclass, only had one fun grenade: the tripmine. Players picked it because the other two grenades felt awful to use. Bungie wasn’t actually sure why it was popular, saying that “it’s possible” the grenade’s success was due to its versatility. Anyone who played Destiny at length could tell you why the tripmine was popular: it felt great to turn your target into a unicorn.

Bungie’s solution to the grenade’s popularity was to remove the ability to stick the grenade to other players. Rather than making the less popular grenades fun to use, Bungie made the popular grenade unfun to use. Now, Gunslinger Hunters had no fun grenades to use at all. While this unpopular decision didn’t impact win rates, it still frustrated players.

Throughout Destiny’s lifespan, as amazing as it often was, Destiny’s nerfs were based in a strange interpretation of the data that assumed popularity was equivalent with power, and reducing power would make everything equally viable. Bungie appeared to prefer making enjoyable mechanics less fun to acknowledging less popular mechanics and making them better.

When players relied heavily on Hand Cannons, Bungie nerfed them. When people resorted to certain shotgun tactics like blink and slide-shotting, Bungie reduced shotgun range. As the sniper tactic of res-sniping gained prominence, Bungie nerfed ammo counts. Throughout Destiny’s entire lifespan, Bungie’s entire strategy seemed to be to find the most popular, most fun mechanics in the game, and nerf them to be in line with the gameplay that players didn’t enjoy. Worse still, many of these adjustments were made based on PvP data, despite PvE being considerably more popular.

One of the last major updates to the game dramatically limited ammo spawns in competitive play. Players who enjoyed using shotguns, snipers, and fusion rifles were no longer able to enjoy those weapons as they once had. The game’s huge Reddit community hated this change, but Bungie failed to acknowledge their concerns at all. In fact, it was about to make things a whole lot worse.

Sucking The Fun Out of Combat

If you enjoyed Destiny 2, it’s tempting to suggest that because the sequel sold more quickly than the original, it’s a better game. The reviews are better too: Destiny launched with a 75 Metacritic average on the Xbox One, and Destiny 2 scored 87, a full 12 points higher. I’ve met plenty of people who believe that there’s nothing wrong with Destiny 2. After all, they enjoyed it a great deal more than its predecessor, so they are happy to argue that it’s the better game. Unfortunately, few of them still play Destiny 2. Once they played through the campaign, some strikes, and maybe even the raid, they were done with Destiny 2.

This is by design.

In Destiny, players had three classes of weapons: primary, secondary, and heavy. Primary weapons are your standard, generic shooter weapons, like pistols, burst-fire rifles, semi-automatic rifles, and automatic rifles.

Secondary weapons are the more interesting weapons, like sniper rifles, shotguns, and fusion rifles. They're weapons that are more specialized in their function, like the long-range snipers or the charge-shot fusion rifles. The third class, heavy weapons, were generally great, high-damage weapons like rocket launchers, swords, heavy machine guns, and one particularly awesome heavy fusion rifle called Sleeper Simulant that fired beams of energy that could bounce around the map.

In Destiny 2, there are two primary slots and one heavy slot. One primary slot has no elements, and the other primary slot has elements. Functionally, there is almost no difference between having the right or the wrong element for a mission—you never feel like you need to try weapons you might not otherwise use, which means you never have the opportunity to discover a new favorite. All the interesting weapons: snipers, shotguns, rocket launchers, fusion rifles, and swords, were jammed into one slot.

The end result is that combat is far less interesting now. You’ll never get to experience that dirty res-snipe or clutch shotgun kill. Over the past few weeks, I’ve returned to Destiny with a friend who has only ever played Destiny 2; he told me that Destiny feels like the sequel to Destiny 2, not the other way around. Both of us agreed that Destiny was way more exciting when you could hit someone with a primary, then mop them up with a shotgun or fusion rifle. It felt better because the combat options were a lot more diverse. With the new system, there’s rarely a reason to try anything special other than a rocket launcher.

Over the past few months, more and more of Destiny’s community has caught on. Slayerage, one of Destiny’s biggest streamers, made a video discussing the weapon system in-depth a few months ago. When the standard bullet-slinging weapons dominate two of the three slots, and all the exciting weapons get crammed into one slot, the combat variety becomes disastrously monotonous.

Bungie could fix a lot of Destiny 2’s problems by converting to the original Destiny combat, but that is no easy task, and the problems don’t stop there. While swapping freely between primary, secondary, and heavy weapons allows for the most engaging combat variety, having two exciting primaries fighting alongside each other would be pretty great, but once again, Destiny 2 gets in the way.

A Loot Shooter With No Loot

Destiny is, fundamentally, a series about earning loot. At a glance, Destiny 2 is more generous, but there’s a problem: while the original game gave players a huge variety of ways to earn better gear, Destiny 2 mostly limits players to earning tokens, which can then be exchanged for a random weapon. Want to play the raid? Enjoy those tokens. Feeling like some Crucible? Token time! Exploring one of the game’s patrol zones? Expect to receive plenty of tokens. It was fun to get weapons like Fatebringer or Gjallarhorn from a boss drop or treasure chest in Destiny, but you won’t be screaming "OH MY GOD IT HAPPENED!" in Destiny 2.

Even if you get a gun like Better Devils from something other than a token, it will only be exciting once. Legendary weapons in Destiny tend to have four perks available at any given time. One of my favorite guns in Destiny, the semi-automatic rifle Hung Jury SR4, has two amazing headshot perks, Triple Tap and Firefly, which both reward players for getting headshots by refunding bullets to the magazine and creating explosions after headshot kills.

It’s possible to get other rolls on the Hung Jury. I know some people prefer the in-air accuracy buff granted by Icarus, and others are all about the quick-aim perks like Snapshot. That’s the beauty of Destiny’s system: the rolls are random, which means that it’s possible to get whatever version of the Hung Jury you might want. This means that every time you get a new gun, you’re going to want to check out its perks to see if it suits your play style more than the gun you currently have.

This isn’t that surprising, of course. Most loot games feature randomized loot because that’s the only way to keep things surprising; thinking about the perks available to players and how those perks affect the way you use the weapon is a big part of the fun of getting new guns. Before Destiny 2’s release, the game's director Luke Smith expressed an awareness of this problem, saying “How can my second, third, and tenth Better Devils hand cannon be interesting? That's a question we should be asking and answering as quickly as we can.”

Five months after Destiny 2’s release, Bungie has no answers. In Destiny 2, all the guns have static rolls with fewer perks than before. One of the best guns in the game, Better Devils, will drop with three perks: Extended Mag, Flared Magwell, and Explosive Payload. You must pick between the first two perks, which are more or less equal in terms of damage output, and the third will always be active. Worse still, every single Better Devils will drop with those perks. Once you’ve earned a Better Devils, getting another one to drop stops being exciting. It will always be the same gun.

It’s like receiving Final Fantasy VII for Christmas in 1997… and then getting an identical PlayStation copy for Christmas every year after that. It was great the first time, but once you have it, what’s the point of another copy?

None of Destiny 2’s weapons are exciting. There’s never a chance to get something as amazing as Hung Jury, because every gun’s rolls are predictable and every gun has fewer perks than in Destiny. Some of the best perks in the original, like Tripod (which let rocket launchers fire three rockets before needing to reload), are completely absent. Others, like Firefly, have been turned into weaker perks like Dragonfly, which still creates an explosion, but the damage has been so dramatically reduced that the perk might as well not exist.

Exotic weapons and armor have been nerfed as well. Young Ahamkara’s Spine lost its signature perk, no longer giving players two tripmines. Telesto lots its signature power orb drop. Red Death, an amazing pulse rifle, made it over to Destiny 2 as Crimson, a hand cannon. As a result, Crimson loses the accuracy, range, and ammo pool that made Red Death a meaningful weapon; as a hand cannon, it’s one of the worst exotics in the series’ history.

Bungie has recently attempted to address some weaknesses to the lack of randomization with the addition of Masterworks, a special class of legendary weapon that offers minor stat buffs and occasionally drops orbs of light, objects that reduce the player’s super ability countdown by a few seconds, but getting a Masterworked Better Devils that boosts your magazine size means you’ll get just one extra bullet, while an improvement to handling is more or less unnoticeable.

A combination of boring weapon systems, static loot, fewer perks, and less interesting perks means that loot, the primary reason to continue playing a game like Destiny after completing the story, is no longer meaningful. The game is built to reward every action with loot, but the loot system is the most sterile I have ever seen. People are leaving Destiny 2 because there are no solid reasons to keep people playing. There is no reason to purchase any forthcoming DLC, because there is no loot to look forward to with this system in place.

The end result of all these nerfs is that Bungie no longer feels the need to play whack-a-mole. While Smith argued that the static rolls would make it easier for the sandbox team to adjust the weapon system, Destiny 2 has had almost no significant sandbox updates in the past few months. Destiny 2 is predictable, flat, and boring, and no one is happy about it. Players are abandoning the game in droves. Trials of the Nine participation, a good standard for judging Destiny’s health, recently had a 71,000 player weekend. In the first Destiny, for three years Trials participation never dropped below 145,000 players, even after months without a content update. Destiny 2 having half that many players in just five months is dire.

What Can Bungie Do to Save Destiny 2?

One of the most difficult things for a game developer to do is parse player feedback. Shortly after Destiny 2’s release, one of the most popular Reddit threads was titled "You don’t miss random weapon rolls." That sentiment has changed drastically as it became clear just how boring it was getting the same guns over and over again.

Players have expressed frustration with the current slow speed of the game compared to its predecessor. There are complaints about how boring the Crucible is when the only strategy is for a team to stick together. Players are frustrated that so much of Destiny 2’s loot is locked behind the Eververse, Bungie’s cash shop, where in Destiny, players could get cool ships and sparrows for completing in-game content like raids. Players have repeatedly requested zone chat, private matches, 6v6 combat, Nightfalls without timers, and other features.

So many of these problems are the direct result of ignoring what made Destiny such an endlessly playable game to begin with. Bungie’s passionate community has seemingly endless complaints about the sequel. Nightfalls should never have had timers. 4v4 should have never replaced 6v6. Private matches were a popular element of Destiny, so why were they removed from Destiny 2? Destiny rewarded players with unique loot for specific activities; why doesn’t Destiny 2 have them? Players loved uncovering secrets in Destiny, so why were all secrets removed from Destiny 2? Why do grenades take so long to charge? Why is the player speed so much slower? Thankfully, Bungie is finally addressing some of those concerns. It has even made efforts to improve the game speed.

I think Destiny’s fans are glad that Bungie is at least trying to make things right. The developers have promised adding text chat to some parts of the game but getting that working isn’t going to stop people from leaving the game, nor will it bring people back. It’s not that these things don’t matter, but they aren’t the changes that will bring players back to the game. If the Eververse was removed from Destiny 2 entirely and the shader system was reverted to a permanent system tomorrow, most of the players who left won’t come back.

The only way to bring players back is to give them a game that’s fun to play and loot that’s fun to obtain. Destiny understood that, and it’s why it’s one of Bungie’s most successful games. Destiny 2 doesn’t, and it’s losing players far more quickly than its contemporaries.

I uninstalled Destiny 2 a few weeks ago, and I don’t know if I’ll ever reinstall it. I still play Destiny with my friends, even though I’ve put more than 1,000 hours into it already. If Bungie wants me back, it’s going to take more than saying that we’ll see “weapon slot and archetype improvements” in Fall 2018. I need to hear that shotguns, snipers, and fusion rifles are returning to the secondary slot before anything else. I need to know that random rolls are coming back in a month or two, not this fall. I need to see tripmines regain their former unicorn-granting sticky glory, while the old exotics get returned to their previous power levels. I need Bungie to excite me again.

Right now, Destiny 2 doesn’t.

For more on Destiny 2, head over to our Destiny 2 guides, including a look at Exotic weapons in Destiny 2, and our Destiny 2 raid guides.

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Comments 33

  • Avatar for Number1Laing #1 Number1Laing 7 months ago
    People want more Destiny 1 which is understandable if you've sank hundreds or thousands of hours into it... but I don't think Bungie wanted to keep making Destiny 1. They didn't want to put in the endless and thankless amount of work to maintain such a big MMO. That's how the game ended up simpler, less dynamic, with a mobile game tier loot grind, and so forth.

    Bungie is at a crossroads, either they basically turn into the World of Warcraft team and give it their all or they start working on a new franchise. People don't want a half-assed Destiny.
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  • Avatar for adrianhixenbaugh92 #2 adrianhixenbaugh92 7 months ago
    THANK YOU!!! Finally someone has made an article about every single thing I’ve been posting on the forums. We have literally said the exact same things. I want people to see this, because the community is in an identity crisis, and a good percentage of players know destiny 2 is failing, but they can’t put into words why it’s bad. And you have done exactly that right here. We need random rolls and the original weapon loadouts and proper sandbox tuning. The game is vast, but the system in place doesn’t fill it out. Destiny 1 truly feels like the sequel. I am currently sharing this article everywhere I can think of. People need to read this!
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  • Avatar for rezzyk #3 rezzyk 7 months ago
    So, to me it has seemed like the core team that made Destiny jumped right over to start work on Destiny 2, while a support team/clean-up crew took over maintaining Destiny. That team eventually turned Destiny into something fun and special, but the team working on Destiny 2 did not incorporate any of those design changes made by the other team into Destiny 2.

    Maybe I'm reading into things wrong, but it sure feels that way.
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  • Avatar for UnskippableCutscene #4 UnskippableCutscene 7 months ago
    I agree with the weapon slots, but random perks were bad and needed to go away. It was basically a no-pay version of lootboxing, except we called things "god roll" or "dismantle trash." People kept throwing away their guns over and over trying to get ones that had a specific chain of passive characteristics. It was, frankly, stupid grinding of the worst sort.

    There's a big demand to bring this back, particularly from the crowds of people who loved the sadism of waiting nine months for that perfect sniper rifle, but I think something in-between is in order. I'd rather be able to make permanent choices regarding the passives and buffs of a weapon and essentially "grow your own roll" out of a selection of choices, than either of the systems we've seen. If Bungie can do that or not is beyond my knowledge, but I think some level of personalization can exist by making people choose from a pre-selected pool of perks that makes sure that, hopefully, none of them become too overpowered.

    I think Destiny 2 has much bigger problems than perks and whether they're random or not. About 70% of the exotics are nothing special, and the first one was handed to me as part of the campaign whereas when I played in late 2015 it took a month for me to get my hands on one (and I think I bought it from Xur, given that I didn't really have access to serious end-game content.)

    There's a few people who loved, and I mean genuinely loved, that Destiny 1 had as much grinding as the worst mobile games for min-max'ers. These people, as rough as this may sound, should not be catered to. Random rolls should not return. But the fundamental level of their complaint, that there's about 20 guns everyone has that are all played the same way by everyone, isn't wrong. It just needs to be addressed in a way that isn't RNG that is weirdly beneficial to some players ("yay, first roll god roll", etc) and sadistically punitive to others. It needs, for lack of a better term, a structure.

    As far as Bungie's nerfs go, they've been pretty good about things so far. Their big problem in Destiny 1 was going after entire classes of weapons rather than specific weapons (nerfing all auto rifles in response to the SUROS Regime, for example.) They have so far left MIDA and Better Devils and Uriel's alone. That means you see a ton of those three guns, and hear their sounds constantly ringing through your ears, but unless they actually bring out the nerf bat (but please, let's just nerf Explosive Rounds instead of the entire Hand Cannon class) it's just going to be like that.Edited 2 times. Last edited February 2018 by UnskippableCutscene
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  • Avatar for Kuni-Nino #5 Kuni-Nino 7 months ago
    Making all the drops the same and making them so frequent really hurt the game. In Destiny 1, getting a purple drop from a random enemy was something that maybe happened once every full moon. In Destiny 2 I get a 3 purple drops in a single session. The worst part is that all the loot is the same. There's no differences between my first Nameless Midnight or my tenth, so what's the point?

    As scathing as this article is, it doesn't even get into the piss poor level design of Destiny 2. Only two areas are worth visiting out of the five (Nessus and EDZ) and some of them like Mercury are just a one area big with little do.

    Another thing...what the hell happened to the lore? I used to enjoy hunting down the dead ghosts and piece together a history or story through the grimoires. Now all that stuff is tied to tidbits you read up on when selecting your weapons. It's so weird.

    I have had fun with Destiny 2 but in a lot of ways it does feel like the lesser game. This article did an excellent job describing most of the game's problems.
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  • Avatar for adrianhixenbaugh92 #6 adrianhixenbaugh92 7 months ago
    @UnskippableCutscene I completely 100% disagree. To say an rng system is not fair is false. Everyone gets the same chance. Some play more than others and some give up after 1 go. But it’s the backbone of an mmo looting experience. I believe players like us should definitely be catered to because as we’ve seen from recent results, bungie’s attempt to reel in the casual player base failed for 1 purpose: a casual gamer will always be a casual gamer. You can rarely change that. Some people simply like to game hop. It’s very difficult to reel in certain types of people. The attempt to simplify the game and make it more “fair” did nothing but ward off long time players, and wasn’t engaging enough to keep casuals. The end result: stick to your core players. The grinders. The ones that dump thousands of hours into the grind. There will always be casual events for people who wish to grind less. And as for crucible balance, crucible can get its own static roll competitive mode, hell they can even throw trials in there. Generic loadouts, generic armor with no perks, generic weapons with no perks. Fair fair fair. But don’t tell me mods will solve my problem. Mods will create a temporary experience until everyone in the game has all the same “god rolls”. They’re only prolonging the imminent doom. Random rolls made you special. Walking into the tower with an outlaw firefly imago loop was the stuff. You felt legend. You don’t feel that anymore. It’s taken away the heart and soul of the game. If you don’t support this then I guess we’re enemies. And i’ll do everything I can to stop you
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  • Avatar for adrianhixenbaugh92 #7 adrianhixenbaugh92 7 months ago
    @Kuni-Nino I don’t believe level design is as high up as random rolls, weapon loadouts, or NEW and better crucible modes. They can work on level design when they can restructure the game to function in a way that is pleasing to experience.
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  • Avatar for Monkey-Tamer #8 Monkey-Tamer 7 months ago
    @Kuni-Nino I played through the campaign in Destiny 2, and have never played the first game. I have no idea about any lore. All I know is kill generic big bad. The lack of lore and bland weapons resulted in me dropping the game and never picking it back up again. It's a shame. Having read this article perhaps it could have been my new shoot n loot addiction. Guess I'll just hope and pray Borderlands 3 doesn't suck.
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  • Avatar for OneUpMushroom88 #9 OneUpMushroom88 7 months ago
    Bungie lost me on this one. I was a big fan of Destiny 1 and was really hopeful for Destiny 2. It’s like they completely disregarded what worked in Destiny 1. I got it at release and was done with it in Nov. haven’t looked back since. No reason to play and probably too late for me even if they make some improvements. I’ve moved on to Monster Hunter World.
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  • Avatar for dimasok #10 dimasok 7 months ago
    I am so glad I didn't buy this shit. Destiny 1 was awesome and Destiny 2, from the trial I played, was boring and grindingly repetitive.

    F-you Bungie for being a bunch of clueless shitheads.Edited February 2018 by dimasok
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  • Avatar for VotesForCows #11 VotesForCows 7 months ago
    Great article Doc, even for people who've never played Destiny. Always enjoy your stuff.
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  • Avatar for AgentDaleCooper #12 AgentDaleCooper 7 months ago
    @UnskippableCutscene

    So instead of having "god rolls" and "dismantle trash" we're now just stuck with dismantle trash only. Everything is an instant dismantle and loot is never, ever worth inspecting.

    I disagree with everything you say in your post, and if you think Destiny can succeed without some sort of concession to the random roll trope, you're delusional.
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  • Avatar for DrinkingWithSkeleton #13 DrinkingWithSkeleton 7 months ago
    I still think that Bungie's insistence on parity between PvP and PvE is the source of many problems. I find Destiny 2's PvP balance to be better than Destiny 1's, in part because specific, specialized weapon types, like sniper rifles, no longer dominate matches.

    But in PvE, much of the liveliness has been drained because too many weapons simply aren't useful in that context, even though heavy ammo is much easier to acquire in PvE. They can't get crazy because PvP can't get crazy.

    If Bungie kept separate balance tables for PvE and PvP, I think they'd solve a lot of problems in one fell swoop.
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  • Avatar for Thetick #14 Thetick 7 months ago
    Haven’t people played pvp in destiny one? It was almost always broken. And if the meta wasn’t broken, The lag was horrible. There were plenty of times where you got hit with multiple supers in a row. Insta kill shoulder charge, OP grenades and impossible sniper shots. Destiny 2 has improved on pvp in a huge way. It’s fair and action packed. 4 vs 4 is the perfect number for pvp. Plenty of stuff that need fixing in SP. But please let’s not go back to D1 pvp
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  • Avatar for DrinkingWithSkeleton #15 DrinkingWithSkeleton 7 months ago
    @UnskippableCutscene I think you're spot-on that the demands for more grinding are insane. Even other grind-based games don't go nuts. In Monster Hunter, you fight a monster a half-dozen times and you're probably good to move on.

    Everyone complained about the Osiris DLC, but I thought it addressed this very complaint with its Prophecy weapons. They were an interesting, visually distinct collection, dropped at a slightly higher level than normal (and then were added to the Mercury loot pool) and required work to get. Getting all of them was an achievable goal, and along the way I was able to get a bunch of Masterwork upgrades. I really liked that, as it wasn't the mind-numbing grind of Destiny 1 but wasn't the pointless achievement of much of Destiny 2's equipment system.
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  • Avatar for jasonallen82 #16 jasonallen82 7 months ago
    @Thetick YET...PVP has less than HALF of the player base after only a few months compared to D1 years after release..

    Some people like yourself just dont get it..
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  • Avatar for garion333 #17 garion333 7 months ago
    Boom. Nice writeup.
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  • Avatar for johnmshipleyjr17 #18 johnmshipleyjr17 7 months ago
    Jeez can we give this dead horse a break. Months of these types of articles....MONTHS...I think most of us who actually play the game regularly are getting sick of the cry babies and players who constantly threaten to leave the game or have already left. Ok we get it, you don't like it. They're making changes, until then play stupid crap like fortnight or overwatch, but ffs stop writing articles about how terrible D2 is.
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  • Avatar for UnskippableCutscene #19 UnskippableCutscene 7 months ago
    @adrianhixenbaugh92 "God roll or trash" is boring and if your argument is that everyone is going to use the same gun the same way because some guide will tell them to min-max then maybe we need new systems to deal with that, like class guns or something. People throwing away dozens of copies of the same gun because of RNG is satisfying to obsessives, but no one actually feels like they're actually in control of their own progress, which is a tenant of good game design. Look at why people think lootboxes are unsatisfying: some of it is because of real money, but a large amount of it is the lack of player control. It's sort of ironic to have a game called "Destiny" where players don't have any control over their own... well... destinies.

    When I played WoW, reforging had just been introduced and everyone playing my character's class and role was reforging nearly everything to the Mastery stat. Also, the "tier" armor from raids etc was clearly better than most things in the game, so everybody of a certain class looked largely similar until transmogrification was introduced. This wasn't really a problem, though I wouldn't mind if Destiny added a transmog style system in the future since they have so many guns and so little vault space.

    If you want truly random perks, then perks are going to be useless, at least in PVP, because nobody enjoys being ganked by something someone scored by pure chance. That's the fundamental truth behind what got us here. I think we can still have meaningful perks if we give people to choose between the meaningful perks they want, sacrificing some over others.

    @johnmshipleyjr17 I don't agree with your tone, but I do agree that these kind of articles are increasingly clickbait-ey, since we all know what Bungie is aware of issues and rolling out waves of patches to fix them. Edited 2 times. Last edited February 2018 by UnskippableCutscene
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  • Avatar for Elocism #20 Elocism 7 months ago
    @UnskippableCutscene a majority of Destiny players want to grind for God roll guns, it kept you coming back, but much more important than that is casual players didn't grind and likely didn't even know what the makeup of a god roll was. So they removed replayability to cater to a group of people who didn't care one way or another. I honestly can't remember the last time I got a weapon or an armor piece that I didn't immediately trash without even looking at it, how is that an improvement?
    D2 defenders are a funny bunch (not that you are defending D2, just a side note) always saying how great the game is while clearly even Bungie disagrees.
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  • Avatar for Elocism #21 Elocism 7 months ago
    @johnmshipleyjr17 Bungie wants/needs/encourages this kind of feedback. Clearly Bungie agrees that they messed up and are fixing things.
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  • Avatar for Elocism #22 Elocism 7 months ago
    @DrinkingWithSkeleton you're going to be done with monster hunter soon. That's the part you're missing, Destiny was something you could play everyday for years and never be "done". The best part was, you never had to play everyday, but now there's no reason to. That's where they messed up, Bungie removed replayability for no actual reason. The "hardcore" players wanted the grind and the "casual"players didn't care anyway. Basically they fixed something that wasn't broken. Edited February 2018 by Elocism
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  • Avatar for LunarFlame17 #23 LunarFlame17 7 months ago
    As a casual Destiny player, I find these kinds of articles fascinating and borderline incomprehensible. I couldn’t care less about what kind of loot I pick up, beyond, “is this gun more powerful than the gun I’m currently using?” I also rarely use anything other than primary weapons, because I’m so paranoid about running out of ammo, so the change to secondary weapons doesn’t faze me. Honestly, my two questions before picking up a first person shooter are “Is it fun to shoot things?” and “Is it pretty?” Destiny 2 answers both of those questions with “Hell, yes”, as did Destiny, so I’m good with both games. I’m also not at all the type of player Bungie wants to focus on, because there’s nothing they could do to get me to play the game long-term, because I’m just not the type of person who plays games for hundreds of hours at a time.
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  • Avatar for DrinkingWithSkeleton #24 DrinkingWithSkeleton 7 months ago
    @Elocism I don't really want a game that I can play for years, especially if those years are just grinding strikes and patrols and MMO-esque quests. If I want endless replayability, I can turn to strategy games.

    I've sunk something like 150 hours or so into Destiny 2, including the first expansion, and finally reached the point where there's really nothing left, but I'll be jumping back in for the Valentine's Event. I don't begrudge the game for not trying to be an all-consuming leech on my free time, and it's not like I'm not still firing it up sometimes. I'm happy to wait for more new content and don't really see the problem in the model (though I'd like better writing, gun balance, etc.).

    Fundamentally, I agree there are problems with Destiny 2. But the question is whether Destiny, as a franchise, should cater above all else to people who want to play Destiny and nothing but Destiny for years on end or if it's enough to make a product that one can finish and put down. As someone who gets tired of MMOs and their demands on my time, I'm happy with being able to say "I'm done with Destiny for now" periodically.
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  • Avatar for Thalorian #25 Thalorian 7 months ago
    The D1 House of Wolves expansion was a huge let down. It should've just been a content update. The problem with games nowadays is content. There is little to no content updating because it's all about money now. You shell out all this money for "season passes" that have barely any new content to keep the players interested in the game. There needs to be more patches that add content (this is still why wow, even after almost 2 decades, is still the leader and reigning champion in the gaming department). I hate hyping up for a game just to have the dreams get pulverized into oblivion...No Man's Sky is a huge example of this...I knew from the teaser trailer of D2 that the game was gona blow dick, which led to me not wasting the money on it. When I saw that there were the same 3 classes from D1, I started laughing...lazy ass developers. Same shit, different toilet. D2 is almost the worst sequel to a blockbuster title in this century...Edited February 2018 by Thalorian
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  • Avatar for Elocism #26 Elocism 7 months ago
    @DrinkingWithSkeleton that's the problem that so many people have, they had both with Destiny, you could play for years or you could play at dlc for a couple weeks and move on. People who wanted to grind endlessly could. People who wanted to play for a couple hours could. People who wanted to play something else and come back could. The hobbyist, arguably their most important subset of fans, was completely ignored in D2. It's just odd considering they had a formula that worked for everybody in d1. Really the main point is that people loved the grind, but you never had to grind for anything, so why did they remove it? If you were only going to play for a couple hours a week, you don't need a ghorn, if you were going to run a few crucible matches, you didn't need a God roll hand cannon.
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  • Avatar for UnskippableCutscene #27 UnskippableCutscene 7 months ago
    @Elocism At some point the arguing just becomes asinine, because I’m not arguing against powerful perks, or against time investment. I’m arguing that there should be a finite and definitive amount of time to get those perks.

    If you want to require grinding to get good perks, sure, let’s do it. But let’s be specific about how much grinding. Everything else about the game, including prestige raid rewards, is clear and straightforward. Let’s drop this mobile game idea of endless grinding and say, you need to grind this much to fill all the perk slots. You need to grind this much to get the best perks on the gun. If you want to change perks because of a balance patch or something, then either throw away your gu or stick it in storage and grind on a new one.

    This gives people some repetitive grinding without the brutally unfair RNG. It actually makes you feel rewarded for your time instead of sinking your life as a substitute for money into a giant slot machine. Because the D1 model is like the person who sits down at the machine next to you and jackpots on their first five dollars while you’re down over a hundred.
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  • Avatar for bogdancaramalac68 #28 bogdancaramalac68 7 months ago
    Destiny 2 could be miles better. They just don't want to make it better. They'd rather let it die than return to the drawing board to put the RPG back. That Chris guy is determined to kill it, and will destroy Bungie along.

    This whole trend taking place for months tells them something: players want a FPS RPG, just as D1 has been. No, Chris wants a FPS... non-RPG. Hell, if we'd had wanted that, we'd have bought Call of Duty instead. Or CS:GO for the bloody PVP that they are so interested about. For the moment it worked, but he doesn't seem to grasp that gamers are not just gamers, they are customers who trusted the company to make a certain product, and if this product is not brought back to its desired design that the customers thought it was going to have, as a sequel, then those customers aren't gonna throw more cash for DLCs or for other products that Bungie will make. And for us it doesn't care who suggested Bungie to make the game unattractive. Hell, could be some think-tank that said "Hey, those games are too bloody addictive and people just don't wanna take extra hours for jobs, so make them unattractive". I don't understand otherwise why Bungie clings to this dead design unless it's really something dark that we don't know, but the way it's going, some shareholders should take over and intervene in the management before disaster strikes; trust is the most important thing, and Bungie threw most of it down the toilet. If this continues, at some point the damage will become irreversible.
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  • Avatar for Number1Laing #29 Number1Laing 7 months ago
    @Thalorian The thing is that making content is HARD. Extremely hard. That is what led me to post my first comment. I don't know how ArenaNet, Blizzard, etc. keep doing it but they do. And yet I wonder how Blizzard's devs feel when they spend months working on a dungeon and then some party finishes it the first afternoon and a week later people are complaining that they are bored.

    To make this work you become a MMO studio where everything is geared around that new content, expansion, balancing, dealing with the community, etc. They didn't want to do that. The fact that D2 was not an expansion for D1 was the first sign. Maybe Destiny 2 should never have come out because it was sold in bad faith.
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  • Avatar for SuperSteve #30 SuperSteve 7 months ago
    Let me start off by saying that i had never played D1 when i got D2 two months ago. So hear me out before you yell at me. To me D2 doesn't feel like a MMO-RPG-Looter Shooter It feels more like COD, Battlefield or any other AAA FPS you can beat in a few weeks and wait a year for the "next version". I thought Destiny was supposed to be about the end game and the grind? Rewarding players that put in the time. Fast forward 2 months and i feel like i have beat the game, i leveled all 3 classes to 25, acquired every exotic weapon and 90% of the exotic armor (missing a few that are pointless) and received all legendary weapons. Now with masterwork armor there is no point in grinding for anything except enough masterwork cores to roll your favorite looking set to have the stats you want. So just like (insert AAA FPS Title) the only reason to keep playing is because i enjoy going online to play with friends and i really do like how the game plays. While i do enjoy the game it does have major flaws like this being a looter shooter with no real loot to grind for. However there are some easy fixes that wont bring back players but would keep more from leaving. Simple things like why do i have to delete some of the loot i want to keep just so that i can dismantle something from the post master? how hard can adding a dismantle button to the postmaster be? When i started the game with my first guardian i get 200 vault spots but don't get anymore for your 2nd or 3rd? Why cant i play whatever multiplayer mode i want to? Or be able to go into a private game to learn the maps/callouts?Edited 2 times. Last edited February 2018 by SuperSteve
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  • Avatar for Bumadan #31 Bumadan 7 months ago
    This article is clearly written by a crucible/raid player. While that is fine it is kinda odd hearing that locking things away in the Eververse is "bad" and that they should instead be available in the Raid. So that's not locking it away I guess? And some of the guns you praise are apparently only available in the Crucible - but to you that is "not locked away" because you like playing that kind of content.

    I think everything should be available everywhere.

    The people that like playing in the Crucible would still play there as well as the raiders would do the raids. But at the same time people who don't have the time or interest in those specific types of game would also be able to get their hands on the same things.

    You seem to forget that we all only paid once for the game - you don't really have any right to expect access to exclusive items or more content just because you spend a ton of hours in the competitive part of D2.

    That Bungie despite of that chose to lock items away in the Crucible and raid doesn't make much sense in a non-MMO game. On the other hand if they actually made this into a real subscription-based MMO then it would start to make sense that those that play a lot (and pay a lot) should gain access to special items.

    I would say you should actually be happily surprised about how much Bungie has tuned the game towards your style of play because you are certainly getting more for your money that me.

    But please don't misunderstand - I actually think D2 is a pretty decent game. But I also think and maybe hoped that would have been more/better. And as you mention it is kinda mindblowing that in some ways D1 feels like a better more interesting game than D2.
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  • Avatar for briansatz37 #32 briansatz37 5 months ago
    Very well written.
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  • Avatar for joãovitorino77 #33 joãovitorino77 4 months ago
    @UnskippableCutscene I will have to completely disagree with this paragraph:

    "It was basically a no-pay version of lootboxing, except we called things "god roll" or "dismantle trash." People kept throwing away their guns over and over trying to get ones that had a specific chain of passive characteristics. It was, frankly, stupid grinding of the worst sort."

    This is not grinding of the worst sort, at all, and I am a person that HATES grinding. This is what "loot games" are all about, if you were a fan of Diablo 2 when it came out you will know what I mean. Diablo 2 IMO had the best loot system ever created, and no game since then has succeeded in emulating this formula, Diablo 3 loot sucked at launch (I heard that it has improved since then but I uninstalled in 2012 and I haven't played since then). The thrill of getting that (almost) perfect item is 90% of the fun in the game, it's like a giant casino where every monster is a slot machine. Now, this "grind" can be successfully implemented (as in "fun"), or not, and in most, if not all, of the cases it is not... It's hard to put into words why Diablo 2 loot system worked so well, probably it was just by chance - same as "rocket jumping" and "bunny hopping", which started as bugs in the Quake engine back in the 90's, became a trademark feature in FPS games for the following decades - but the fact is, it WORKED and to this day I'm still waiting for the game that will bring me this feeling again.
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